Ever wonder why I talk about not being loyal to LG?

Personoid wrote:

Really? Do I sound like I'm bitching? Which of the problems I mentioned actually causes trouble for me?
I come to this site for the same reason I used to use MS Office. It's the best I can find out of shitty options.

Edit: Did you even read that blog post? If so, you clearly missed the point, and you should read it again.

Edit 2: I don't at all understand why you posted this if you even bothered to read the blog post. If you didn't, as a mod, you should be ashamed for responding in such a way without even considering the full content of the first post. I clearly outline the reasons that LG and similar forums, Mr. Defensive, are doomed due to their initial setup. And your response offers no counter argument at all. It's simply derogatory.

Let me help you understand what it is to "bitch".
Bitching: To profess the problems and terribleness of things while doing nothing to rectify them or failing to see things are not any where near as bad as they seem due to the person bitching being a cynical asshole.
We don't need that here.

Its derogatory because its pretty common knowledge that LG has been under going a facelift and change of perspective by any one that has been around at all or bothered to read the announcements. Aside from that your analysis of a hacking community is just wrong. People do help people and reputation hardly plays a factor in any thing. I've done nothing but be an asshole to almost everyone here since day one and I've done little in terms of contributing to the "hacking" aspect of the site other than uphold a standard as a mod. As the UG mod I've watched the programming staff and more skilled members offer assistance to any one that was actually willing to learn. The mediocrity aspect of all forums results in trial by fire but it is a a fair trail that you can get through if you're persistent and not a candy ass.

C0FFINCASE wrote:

Let me help you understand what it is to "bitch".
Bitching: To profess the problems and terribleness of things while doing nothing to rectify them or failing to see things are not any where near as bad as they seem due to the person bitching being a cynical asshole.
We don't need that here.

Its derogatory because its pretty common knowledge that LG has been under going a facelift and change of perspective by any one that has been around at all or bothered to read the announcements. Aside from that your analysis of a hacking community is just wrong. People do help people and reputation hardly plays a factor in any thing. I've done nothing but be an asshole to almost everyone here since day one and I've done little in terms of contributing to the "hacking" aspect of the site other than uphold a standard as a mod. As the UG mod I've watched the programming staff and more skilled members offer assistance to any one that was actually willing to learn. The mediocrity aspect of all forums results in trial by fire but it is a a fair trail that you can get through if you're persistent and not a candy ass.

So explaining that the problem lies in the action of users and that they must be encouraged in a different direction from the birth of the forum doesn't make it clear enough how to rectify the issue? I'm deeply sorry, how can I make it any more clear?

Yeah, everyone knows LG is going through changes and that's all fine and dandy, but all of the problems I mentioned do apply to Lg in its current state. Reputation doesn't play a part and you know this because you pay attention to the UG? That'd be wonderfully contradictory to my point if not for the fact that UG has a rep, post, and contribution requirement. The staff do help outside of the UG, I'm sure, from time to time, those who display interest in learning. What about my other points about how newbies come for "leet hax" and then spend their time trying to get into UG with mediocre qualities and add to the general crap of the forum? These users need to be steered in the direction of wanting to learn rather than frowned upon in the first place. You need to check out my post without bias because your urge to defend LG is causing you to miss key points in my post.

As for your last sentence, "you can get through if you're persistent," do you even look around LG? Take a look at some of the recent source releases in the programs section- wait, you probably have no idea what I mean so I'll explain. The majority of source code in the programs section are extremely mediocre. This, as I've said, is not the fault of the newbie programmer trying to share, but the fault of more skilled members not bothering to contribute. There are several examples of this throughout. You are rushing to defend this site without actually considering what I've said. Congratulations.

There's is no real way to have an ideal community if everyone is gonna be a rude troll and liar.
For the most part Personoid nailed the flaws.

Scarecrow wrote:

There's is no real way to have an ideal community if everyone is gonna be a rude troll and liar.
For the most part Personoid nailed the flaws.

I don't get it. Why is it this hard for morons like you and Personoid to understand? He gets your point(s). What he's trying to tell you that it's perceived as bitching. He's trying to tell you to take it elsewhere.

@Personoid: I hope you realize that what you say is only generally convincing to people with mentalities like the user above me. We get your point. This is why you detest forums like this. I don't understand if you unintentionally lack the ability to understand, or you just follow by the "do whatever it takes to win" (even through means of being completely illogical) philosophy. Maybe you should shed some light on this thought.

Personoid wrote:

So explaining that the problem lies in the action of users and that they must be encouraged in a different direction from the birth of the forum doesn't make it clear enough how to rectify the issue? I'm deeply sorry, how can I make it any more clear?

Yeah, everyone knows LG is going through changes and that's all fine and dandy, but all of the problems I mentioned do apply to Lg in its current state. Reputation doesn't play a part and you know this because you pay attention to the UG? That'd be wonderfully contradictory to my point if not for the fact that UG has a rep, post, and contribution requirement. The staff do help outside of the UG, I'm sure, from time to time, those who display interest in learning. What about my other points about how newbies come for "leet hax" and then spend their time trying to get into UG with mediocre qualities and add to the general crap of the forum? These users need to be steered in the direction of wanting to learn rather than frowned upon in the first place. You need to check out my post without bias because your urge to defend LG is causing you to miss key points in my post.

As for your last sentence, "you can get through if you're persistent," do you even look around LG? Take a look at some of the recent source releases in the programs section- wait, you probably have no idea what I mean so I'll explain. The majority of source code in the programs section are extremely mediocre. This, as I've said, is not the fault of the newbie programmer trying to share, but the fault of more skilled members not bothering to contribute. There are several examples of this throughout. You are rushing to defend this site without actually considering what I've said. Congratulations.

I have considered what you've said. That's hardly saying any thing. That's like saying the way to prevent global warming is to reduce pollution. The practical application of such a thing is highly complex. Its far more useful to provide a plan of how such a thing might be achieved. So you are just pointing out a problem and offering no solution.
Reputation doesn't play a part and I know this because I decide who gets into UG. Rep is not a real consideration beyond filtering for UG bronze which is nothing special any way. Ultimately for silver or higher ,where there is regular contribution by the more skilled members, admittance is based entirely on ability. Several people have skipped bronze and thus the requirement of rep, posts, ect and gone straight into silver and gold. There is even a group above gold that several people who weren't in UG at all made it into based on skill alone when they were new.
You want us to try and steer everyone who comes here to want to learn. To that I say look at the world. We devolved into mediocrity along time ago. We don't have the time or ability to do that. Nor is our place, we're not a school. Aside from that you can't make any one want to learn, they have to want to. The hordes that come for "l33t hax" with no clue about any thing that give up when they find out its not as simple as point and click should be educated. Let them post crap, they'll get bored and leave.
As to the lack of more skilled members contributing regularly, they do as I said before but they do so in UG and its done that way for important reasons.
Though I suggest if you want to have a conversation you ought to get off that high horse and start talking to people rather than down to them.

@Unintelligible, There's more than one point I'm trying to make. If you haven't noticed, I've countered most of his argument with my own points, repeated from the original post. My point is obviously not as clear as I would like it to be. You're saying that I'm being illogical. You aren't saying how. You're doing that thing you do where you say something without explaining why you've reached that conclusion.

@C0FFINCASE:
The forums become nearly stagnant because only a small number of newbies ever go beyond being newbies. An even smaller number become assets. All my points about UG are valid. The reasons are not "very important" as you said, however. They're just to prevent newbies from abusing stuff. Of course this is important, but it's not an excuse for all helpful activity to be UG specific.

Anyway, you say I should offer solutions. Are you really telling me that you can't think of any solutions based on the specific issues I've pointed out?
1. Round up a group of users and give them a nice (invisible) title as incentive (they'll feel important for having this title even though it doesn't make them above anyone else). Have their job to be writing newb friendly guides, posting video tutorials and that sort of thing. The really obvious sort of guides and whatnot. Make it "trendy" to be helpful.
2. Site programmers. Same thing for them. If they don't post a guide, video, tutorial, commented source code withing a certain time span demote them.
3. Revise the rules. Rather than guidelines on what not to post, require every post outside the junkyard to meet certain standards. Any post that doesn't not meet these standards should be deleted. Threads too, obviously.
4. Pick a time that's good for most staff. Go through one forum completely. Compile a list of all threads worth keeping. Be strict about it. Delete everything else. Go through those remaining threads and clean out posts. Edit out any parts of posts that don't meet the requirements and delete any that don't meet them at all at all.

Yeah, it's work, but that's to be expected. There are a number of ways to go about this.

Personoid wrote:

@C0FFINCASE:
The forums become nearly stagnant because only a small number of newbies ever go beyond being newbies. An even smaller number become assets. All my points about UG are valid. The reasons are not "very important" as you said, however. They're just to prevent newbies from abusing stuff. Of course this is important, but it's not an excuse for all helpful activity to be UG specific.

Anyway, you say I should offer solutions. Are you really telling me that you can't think of any solutions based on the specific issues I've pointed out?
1. Round up a group of users and give them a nice (invisible) title as incentive (they'll feel important for having this title even though it doesn't make them above anyone else). Have their job to be writing newb friendly guides, posting video tutorials and that sort of thing. The really obvious sort of guides and whatnot. Make it "trendy" to be helpful.
2. Site programmers. Same thing for them. If they don't post a guide, video, tutorial, commented source code withing a certain time span demote them.
3. Revise the rules. Rather than guidelines on what not to post, require every post outside the junkyard to meet certain standards. Any post that doesn't not meet these standards should be deleted. Threads too, obviously.
4. Pick a time that's good for most staff. Go through one forum completely. Compile a list of all threads worth keeping. Be strict about it. Delete everything else. Go through those remaining threads and clean out posts. Edit out any parts of posts that don't meet the requirements and delete any that don't meet them at all at all.

Yeah, it's work, but that's to be expected. There are a number of ways to go about this.

Not everyone that comes here is qualified to learn or be accepted, those that are get accepted.I think you'd be surprised how many people have become important and assets to LG in the last several months. The forum isn't as stagnant as you think it is. The UG specific focus is less about newb abuse and more about legal stuff and building towards something. Things are happening, but its behind the scenes. That will change with time though.

We already did One and are waiting for results. Two is basically in practice. The standard of Three is basically in effect where relevant. Three and four will become more apparent once we have finished transitioning focus.

C0FFINCASE wrote:

Not everyone that comes here is qualified to learn or be accepted, those that are get accepted.I think you'd be surprised how many people have become important and assets to LG in the last several months. The forum isn't as stagnant as you think it is. The UG specific focus is less about newb abuse and more about legal stuff and building towards something. Things are happening, but its behind the scenes. That will change with time though.

We already did One and are waiting for results. Two is basically in practice. The standard of Three is basically in effect where relevant. Three and four will become more apparent once we have finished transitioning focus.

I'm stunned. If you realized the solutions to these problems was taking place, why on earth did you continue to harp that I should be offering solutions problems I specified in detail enough that the solutions could be discerned?

Personoid wrote:

I'm stunned. If you realized the solutions to these problems was taking place, why on earth did you continue to harp that I should be offering solutions problems I specified in detail enough that the solutions could be discerned?

Because if you're going to offer criticism then you need to be willing to offer solutions or help with the process. You were doing what you were saying was the problem, ie not really contributing.
Neo-Marxism is discredited as a theory in political science because it offers criticisms of the world but no solutions.

C0FFINCASE wrote:

Because if you're going to offer criticism then you need to be willing to offer solutions or help with the process. You were doing what you were saying was the problem, ie not really contributing.
Neo-Marxism is discredited as a theory in political science because it offers criticisms of the world but no solutions.

Offering-I stress the word-specific criticisms leaves room for others to provide their own solutions. I didn't say "omg lg sucks because you don't work hard enough to encourage newbies." I told you exactly how these forums tend to fail so as to provide food for thought to improve your community.
PS. I hate LG for more reasons than I hate the other forums. There are some "key" members of LG who really piss me off out of sheer ignorance. Chad being the prime example. That's a damn fine reason for me to not want to contribute.

Personoid wrote:

Offering-I stress the word-specific criticisms leaves room for others to provide their own solutions. I didn't say "omg lg sucks because you don't work hard enough to encourage newbies." I told you exactly how these forums tend to fail so as to provide food for thought to improve your community.
PS. I hate LG for more reasons than I hate the other forums. There are some "key" members of LG who really piss me off out of sheer ignorance. Chad being the prime example. That's a damn fine reason for me to not want to contribute.

You claimed intent is not the way you presented the criticism.It came off more as "omg lg sucks because you don't work hard enough to encourage newbies."
If you don't want to help then don't come here and bitch. Operate on principle, if you hate Lg more than other sites then go there.
I'm sure we've added me to those "key" members but for reference Chad = not around any more.

C0FFINCASE wrote:

Not everyone that comes here is qualified to learn or be accepted,

Excuse me? How can someone not be qualified to learn? That's exactly the sort of attitude Personoid was referring to in his blog post. Anyone who is willing to put in an actual effort to learn should have an opportunity to.

C0FFINCASE wrote:

You claimed intent is not the way you presented the criticism.It came off more as "omg lg sucks because you don't work hard enough to encourage newbies."
If you don't want to help then don't come here and bitch. Operate on principle, if you hate Lg more than other sites then go there.
I'm sure we've added me to those "key" members but for reference Chad = not around any more.

The reason I dislike you and the reason I dislike Chad are not the same. Oh and, Chad isn't around? He replied to a post of mine a few days ago. Maybe a week. Also, I don't give a fuck about your forum. It's simply the most potentially profitable. I've already said this. As for "omg lg sucks" if that blog post were meant to be a post on LG, it would've been. It wasn't directed specifically at LG. These are problems all sites of this nature have.

Also what Px said.

Px-001 wrote:

Excuse me? How can someone not be qualified to learn? That's exactly the sort of attitude Personoid was referring to in his blog post. Anyone who is willing to put in an actual effort to learn should have an opportunity to.

By not being interested in learning. If you come here from Gaia want leet hax assume its going to be point and click and spend five months begging people to make a flp for you cause you don't want to learn to do it yourself or ever go beyond that. You're not qualified to learn and its not our job to teach you. An if that attitude it wrong, then the entire collegiate system is wrong because that's their general viewpoint on people that show up and want to be babied and carried through to a degree. Learning is on the individual, resources and help are provided here and if you can't make use of those you simply don't qualify to learn.

So many tldr posts. I think the problem is everyone over-analyses everything.

The UnIntelligible wrote:

ok. back from jumping in a river.
oh, that's nice. so we're still pals.. right?

What happened to you?
Feel alone on the World wide web ?

Although I agree that generic vBulletin/IPB forums aren't the best. Perhaps when I get some times I should overhaul what we have.